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Odd Happening on the Course

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    Playing yesterday in one of my seniors groups, I skinned a shot from a green-side bunker.  The ball flew over the green and careened across a bridge separating the back and member's tees on the next hole.  It ran up the cart path on the far side of the bridge (from the hole I was playing) and then back down the path to end up on the bridge.  The ball ended in a depressed knothole on one of the cracks between boards of the bridge.  

    The bridge crosses a marked red hazard, but the ends of the bridge are not marked in any way.  I played the ball two ways, to be safe, and sought confirmation following the round.  First, I played the ball as it lay:  whiff (skipping off the board behind the ball), then I stuck the ball and it came straight up and hit me on the edge of my glasses and ended up in the hazard.  The competition had a max stroke rule (triple bogey) in effect, so I picked up that ball for the 7:  two in the bunker, three on the bridge, four for the whiff, five for the hit, penalty for hitting me (6), and then a final stroke to take the ball out of the hazard.

    Second, I dropped out of the hazard, on the opposite side of the hole I was playing, and hit onto the green, where I two-putted.  By my reckoning, that was also a 7: 3 on the bridge, drop 4, on the green 5, and two putts--7.  The first pro told me I should have dropped from the cart path (bridge) with no penalty, ending with a 6, not a 7.  A second pro said no, that the bridge is actually in the hazard and that even dropping out is a one stoke penalty, so 7 was correct.

    Opinions, thoughts?  Any similar happenings on the course?

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    Very interesting post and I have not the slightest clue!

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    Whoa, a lot of work for a 7, sounds like nobody was sure what to do.

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    Proceed to the 19th hole, drink, laugh, and then DQ yourself and consult the web for some kind of definition....WOW!!!!

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    RICK! Call in the rules official!

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    Submit this to the golf magazine rules columns - Is the bridge OVER the hazard IN the hazard?? Eeesh...

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    Or call Tiger or Dustin Johnson - after their rules "escapapdes" they might just have an answer....or not..

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    It's difficult to have any answer, but just a thought or a question, were there any local rule about the unmarked bridge/hazard on one end? . . . maybe it was meant to be marked on the other end?

    I have to agree. . . that was odd.

    Good thing, it didn't hurt you when the ball came up at your glasses.  That would have been the worse.  In match, it would be loss of hole, wouldn't it?  (but that's probably not the game you're playing)

    Anyway, I remember an odd thing during a match on the par 5, 18th, but not similar at all to what you just had.  . . . I was 1 down.  I'm on the green in 3, about 4 feet away.  My opponent is in a front side bunker in 3, (big green) middle pin,

    I'm thinking, I may have a chance to take him to #1 for a sudden death.

    My opponent makes the worse possible swing at a buried lie in a bunker and skulls it.  It jets out and hits the lip of the bunker, hits the flag and his ball stops less than a foot from the hole.

    Stick a fork in me, I'm done. . . he moves on.  Hats off.  We shook hands.  . . . and, till today I still remember the odd story.

    Cheers!

    No'l

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    Without seeing the bridge and the hazard markings, I would venture to say the bridge is part of the hazard, so take your 7 and move on, if you are on the bridge outside the hazard markings it is an immovable obstruction, congrats you get your 6.  

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    A very interesting one here...in my opinion, I believe that you would be entitled to a free lift and drop no closer to the hole as you are entitled to relief from an immovable obstruction.  

    The wood planks that are part of the bridge are clearly considered to be an obstruction.  I am presuming that the bridge over the water hazard is not movable - thus you have an immovable obstruction.  You would be entitled to relief from the immovable obstruction, unless the obstructIon is "in" the water hazard.  

    According to the USGA, -"A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course. All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard."

    A immovable obstruction which is above the water hazard would not, in my opinion, be considered to be ground or water as stated in the definition.  The wood planks are an obstruction and are not "in" the hazard.  I do not believe that the rules define the hazard as stretching into the air above the water or ground.

    Thus, I believe that in this case, you are entitled to relief as your ball came to rest on an immovable obstruction.

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    i would be shocked if a bridge was considered part of a hazard.  the bridge starts and ends out of the hazard and theoretically (not sure in this case) could span the hazard without touching anything in it.  in my opinion, you would receive a free drop from the bridge because it would be considered a cart path.

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    Wow, very interesting, I think the correct ruling would be different depending on the rules official you were talking to (as you found out), I'm not even going to try to figure it out

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    Hmm. Is a bridge a cart path or an immovable obstruction as ToddL asserts?  If it is a cart path or an immovable obstruction, it seems the remedy is the same - free drop!

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    Here is the best I can steal from the USGA:

    Definitions

    All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

    24-1. Movable Obstruction

    A player may take relief, without penalty, from a movable obstruction as follows:

    a. If the ball does not lie in or on the obstruction, the obstruction may be removed. If the ball moves, it must be replaced, and there is no penalty, provided that the movement of the ball is directly attributable to the removal of the obstruction. Otherwise, Rule 18-2a applies.

    b. If the ball lies in or on the obstruction, the ball may be lifted and theobstruction removed. The ball must through the green or in a hazard be dropped, or on the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball lay in or on the obstruction, but not nearer the hole.

    The ball may be cleaned when lifted under this Rule.

    When a ball is in motion, an obstruction that might influence the movement of the ball, other than equipment of any player or the flagstick when attended, removed or held up, must not be moved.

    (Exerting influence on ball – see Rule 1-2)

    Note: If a ball to be dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

    24-2. Immovable Obstruction

    a. Interference

    Interference by an immovable obstruction occurs when a ball lies in or on theobstruction, or when the obstruction interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing. If the player’s ball lies on the putting green, interference also occurs if an immovable obstruction on the putting greenintervenes on his line of putt. Otherwise, intervention on the line of play is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.

    b. Relief

    Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:

    (i)Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer thehole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of thecourse at a spot that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

    (ii)In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

    (a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that thenearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker; or

    (b) Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

    (iii)On the Putting Green: If the ball lies on the putting green, the player must lift the ball and place it, without penalty, at the nearest point of relief that is not in a hazard. The nearest point of relief may be off the putting green.

    (iv)On the Teeing Ground: If the ball lies on the teeing ground, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above.

    The ball may be cleaned when lifted under this Rule.

    (Ball rolling to a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken – see Rule 20-2c(v))

    Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.

    Note 1: If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), the player may not take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction. The player must play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.

    Note 2: If a ball to be dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.

    Note 3: The Committee may make a Local Rule stating that the player must determine the nearest point of relief without crossing over, through or under the obstruction.

    24-3. Ball In Obstruction Not Found

    It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward an obstruction is in the obstruction. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the obstruction. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule27-1.

    a. Ball in Movable Obstruction Not Found

    If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in a movable obstruction, the player may substitute another ball and take relief, without penalty, under this Rule. If he elects to do so, he must remove theobstruction and through the green or in a hazard drop a ball, or on theputting green place a ball, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the movableobstruction, but not nearer the hole.

    b. Ball in Immovable Obstruction Not Found

    If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an immovable obstruction, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of theobstruction must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:

    (i)Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the immovable obstruction at a spot through the green, the player maysubstitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule24-2b(i).

    (ii)In a Bunker: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the immovableobstruction at a spot in a bunker, the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 24-2b(ii).

    (iii)In a Water Hazard (including a Lateral Water Hazard): If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the immovable obstruction at a spot in awater hazard, the player is not entitled to relief without penalty. The player must proceed under Rule 26-1.

    (iv)On the Putting Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the immovable obstruction at a spot on the putting green, the player maysubstitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule24-2b(iii).

    TT

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    Let me look around for a bit and I will get back to you.